TALK 899 - Cupid and Pysche

[Nick] Sonic.

[Nick] Hello, everybody. Welcome to Sonic Talk episode 899.

[Nick] Wow. Next week is 900. Gonna have to do something on the Yakai sampler, I think, that week.

[Nick] Welcome. This is the music technology podcast. We talk about all things to do with studio, recording, software, synthesizers, drum machines,

[Nick] live streaming, live performance, all the areas we can think of, and and increasingly, you know, modern technology and all of those things. So welcome. If you do like this and maybe you're listening on an audio version, please leave drop us a comment on whatever platform you do. I'm trying to increase the visibility because we've been going so long, people sort of forget and just assume there are loads of comments. So please do. We're available everywhere. I'm I'm pretty sure you could do it on Spotify. You can do it on iTunes, all of those places. So do that. That would be awesome. I wanna say thank you very much to our friends in the chat. We've got Redwalks, Azure Head, Babs,

[Nick] Consol Little Ghost,

[Nick] Cheap O Card Company.

[Nick] Who else? Jonathan Carley Jonathan Carley 9094,

[Nick] Boncarama, Scott from Canada, Tim Dale Music. Nice to see you all. It's always a pleasure. Thanks to Wagyu, of course, for the moderation and things. I was just saying to Amanda just before the show. You know, we have a fairly

[Nick] pleasant and refined comment section, certainly on the live comments, and that's largely down to Wagyu's excellent work that he does do for a lot of other people as well. So you you're doing the Lord's work, Wagyu, or somebody's anyway. Certainly my work. That's for sure. Mhmm. So before I get on to introducing our guests, I'm just gonna let you know about what's coming up. We've got

[Nick] let's see. What have we got? We've got new competition running. You can just I thought, maybe you can win

[Nick] a

[Nick] Buso Audio Synthstation 61 desk, which is

[Nick] oh gosh. Glimming cookies.

[Nick] Same selection, which obviously doesn't work when you embed it, but it's that that's a worldwide price available since station sixty one. In fact, if you were

[Nick] at

[Nick] the recent Gearfest show where we were at the last weekend, you will have seen them. They were exhibiting. Also wanna let you know the UVI Rumble review is now online. That is really good. I I would thoroughly recommend

[Nick] checking that out just if you're interested in sort of modern software synthesizer that does some interesting things. GeForce profit five patch flip is up to members. That will be coming online later in the week. Episode four of Sonic Retrocast is coming soon. Waldorf Iridium coming soon, and I've been looking at the Behringer Flow four v, so that'll be coming at some point soon. And last of all, Superstar Hangout available.

[Nick] We're doing this Sunday at 06:00 UK time, which is the Patreon supporters club,

[Nick] in which case, I can now just press the ad for Patreon, and that will give you the information. Details are on our pay. Yes. Indeed. So let's join our guests. We've got three today. I'm gonna go straight to Amanda. Amanda Whiting Gersell from Synthesized Marketing. You may remember her from a couple of weeks on where she was on the tie. Lovely to see you, Amanda. Amanda, I'm so pleased that we've been able to persuade you to come on more than once because I've been I've been on it for for years. So finally years. Finally. For years. Are you? Now now I've now I've gotten the bug, and I I can't quit you, Nick. It's been really, really fun. I had a great time last time. And and, yeah, it's super super awesome to be back.

[Nick] So you're based in Santa Cruz. How's the weather there? Is it still because you've been having because we've been having this kind of ludicrous heat wave where it's been. It was literally 39 degrees last week. They'll show, I think did I do the show here last week, or did I do it at home? I think I did it at home because I just could not Yeah. I couldn't operate. Yeah. You you it's crazy. Y'all been y'all been melting over there. I I feel for you for for sure.

[Amanda] Yeah. Santa Cruz is blessed with 65 degrees weather all year round. So I'm in my hoodie. It's foggy. It's 55 right now and foggy.

[Amanda] So it's it's it's the land of it's the land of jeans, sweatshirts, hoodie, and flip flops, basically,

[Amanda] all the all the time. I can I can use a little warmer? But And all of those clothes that you put on after after going surfing. Right? That sort of thing. Exactly. Oh my god. Robes and all of that stuff. Yeah. Loads of Yeah. Like, these thick thick wet wet suits and yeah. Just just warm

[Amanda] showers. Just get back get back to core temperature, but it's it's lovely. I know this is it's a bit off topic, but do you get sharks there as well? I guess Northern California. Oh, yeah. You probably do. Yeah. Yes. I'd imagine. Oh, yeah. We totally do. There's, like, a big juvenile shark breeding ground, like, a couple miles away from some of the best surf breaks in the world, and everyone's like, you know, it's really about safety in numbers. If you're out and there's 50 other people surfing, your odds are pretty good, and there's, a kelp forest that's kind of a a bridge.

[Nick] You don't wanna be like the slow sheep. You know? It's like Yeah. The one slightly less good surfer who's gets picked off at the edge of the pack. Oh god. Exactly. Exactly.

[Amanda] You know, you know fittest. You don't wanna be all the way you wanna you don't wanna be all the way out there, but, you know, it it happens. But, you know, if you just surf fast enough, it's it's fine. Yeah. Don't worry. Wow. Well, I well, lovely to have you anyway, Amanda. Looking forward to talking to you about the topics. Fantastic. We've also got Paulie Bo from

[Nick] Birmingham,

[Nick] the digital specialist

[Nick] with the with the rather it's like the black light pink noir sign, which I still find quite amusing. How are you, Paulie? You good? Yes. Yeah. Not bad. Thank you.

[Paulee] Yesterday,

[Paulee] day before all the days blur into one when you're self employed.

[Paulee] I got back my beautiful profit 600,

[Paulee] which needed a bit of a repair.

[Paulee] So that was good. So I went to see my friend Brian

[Paulee] just down the road in Moseley,

[Paulee] and picked up my profit and had a bit of a jam on his Jupiter six

[Paulee] and his big modular system and and all sorts of cool circuit bent stuff he's got. So that was really fun.

[Paulee] I think the most exciting news for me is that I'm linking in a bit more with company called Drake Music. Now, if you remember like, I think about

[Paulee] was it about a year ago maybe, I I did a gig in London

[Paulee] at this event called DM lab,

[Paulee] which is disabled

[Paulee] music lab. Well, they run them all over the country, but there's nothing in The Midlands yet. So now that I've got a bit of time, I I thought to myself, well, let's let's get a bit of funding maybe and let's launch one in The Midlands. So I think that'd be really exciting, you know, just to invite

[Paulee] disabled musicians and disabled instrument makers

[Paulee] of instruments for disabled people

[Paulee] to maybe like a monthly event in Birmingham.

[Paulee] I think that'd be really really cool. So that's that's pretty exciting. And last of all, the Iridium review

[Paulee] is nearly done. Woo hoo. I'm just editing the last bits of vocals.

[Paulee] Obviously,

[Paulee] six synthesis engines took a bit of time to cover

[Paulee] and something. Can imagine. Yeah.

[Nick] Of course. Well, lovely to have you, Pooley. I look forward to hearing more from you. And we've got Rob Porricelli. Porricelli from ProSynth Network who's there, able to make us because of a canceled meeting. Do you think that canceled meeting was something to do with the fact that people just didn't wanna risk? Are they willing to get to the pub early so they could see the Brit the England knockout match in the World Cup today against Doctor Congo, which I will, I promise I won't try and shorten the show too much just to be able to go and see it. No. I I think because it's July 4 weekend, said. I work for an American Cup. So they're all kind of doing what we do. It's winding down early because the I think, yeah, you all got Friday off, haven't you, I think, over there? Yeah. So tomorrow's, like, the last day, so they're just winding things down. But no. I think it's just it's just been rescheduled. So it's one of the benefits of of working for an American company. They get up just as I'm going to sleep or going to, you know, for dinner. So

[Rob] Yeah. Yes.

[Rob] Yeah. Busy week. We did,

[Rob] I say we as in the person that went myself and Peter, we did, the Cambridge synthesized event, which is held at the center of computer history,

[Rob] which is just a nice little,

[Rob] little event in a little venue at the back of, Cambridge, and there's lots of nerdy people with lots of cool gear.

[Rob] And, yeah, it's just not it was very hot. The building is is kind of like an

[Rob] upturned baking dish, and it just radiates the heat into the the building. Oh, gosh. The newly installed air con was struggling, shall we say. But Sunday was a little bit less sweaty, but it was good. And met lots of people,

[Rob] old friends, new friends, and I took my Yamaha

[Rob] YCAM system. So I had the the t x eight sixteen, the q x one,

[Nick] d x seven k x 88, and the r x 11. Right. So you're doing that stuff. Excellent. Playing all the stuff that we played a few years ago at, Synfest. So, yeah, that was that was cool. Oh, excellent. Yeah. I went to, Gear Expo UK, which was in Harrow at, that was quite good actually. Although it was, again, it was the building was air conditioned, but it was literally loads of little studios, which were air conditioned where people were exhibiting. But the thing is is to know that anyone who was in there, yet they all the doors were open. So it sort of didn't work. So it was a little bit, but I got some great videos there, and we were trying out a new system. We We used used a a new new phone and a new audio interface, and the the video is just leaps and bands, better quality. And so yeah. But it was a very, very hot day, but good fun. So thanks to the organizers for that. That was a sound on sound thing. It was a good laugh.

[Nick] I just also wanted to put I actually worked on a remix called Shark Attack quite some time ago called by a band called Posh.

[Nick] So you can look that up. You're looking for I think it's the Quadraform

[Nick] Quadraformaggio mix.

[Nick] Very, very yeah. It it was quite Okay. I The mix. Track. The four four cheeses mix. That's right. Because it was very cheesy. We made it very cheesy, but they were like a kind of fun pop band. It was a bit like I'm sure it wasn't really the tubes. It was at the what did they do? Quad oh, yeah. We did a $6,000,000 yeah. So we did Quadraform Magic Mix and the $6,000,000 Club Dub Mix. I've been trying to find an example to play, but I can't say someone will have to go find book

[Rob] of

[Rob] brilliant remix names because there are some gems out there. And I have no idea where they come up with these things,

[Rob] and why. But there should be like it should be like a dictionary of the the remix name and then

[Rob] why.

[Nick] Well, hold on. There's a thought. Now what we you know, in the same way that we always had those porn

[Nick] star name generators, there should be what's your remix a remix name generator. That's good. Well, Amanda, maybe a DJ name. Have you found a d you've got a DJ name, I'm guessing. So you I have I have a DJ name. I have I have two two monikers, but I did think of a of a name recently for either a DJ or a album

[Amanda] that just kind of speaks to me at the more the moment, which is dance floor industrial complex.

[Nick] Okay. Nice. Yeah. That sounds good. That sounds like a great night, actually. A good set. Yeah.

[Nick] I didn't mention, actually, as well as being marketing and PR and all those things,

[Nick] is a musician and DJ and all of those stuff. So yeah. Mhmm. Yep. Okay. So we got some topics. Let me just flip over because I should probably do them. I want I wanted to do oh gosh. I don't know where to start, really.

[Nick] I think if I start with the first one, that's probably the easiest thing. I haven't gotten that this video doesn't really show much about it. Everybody. You know who it is. So this is My name is Sunwoo, and it's a good day because the k o two and the other samplers in the EP series just received another major update. So in this video, I wanna guide you through all the features that I included in it. Let's go. The first Okay. I'm not playing an eleven minute video, but that's the only one I could find. There wasn't a short one that just went, these are the videos, which is is sort of not a video anyone would want to watch, but it were a video I could use as an include to a show like this. So there's probably a very micro niche edit market for that sort of video stuff. We'll have to see. Yeah. I've got the k o two here that but, basically oops.

[Nick] I I do I do really like this. I think possibly being rather blown out of the water by the MPC sample, but they just added

[Nick] USB audio just suddenly appears. So you could get USB in and out of it. You've got multiple sample rates, so you can drop the sample rate. You can

[Nick] sample auto chop and reverse,

[Nick] you know, kind of quite major features for something that may have been seen to thought to have been quite a sort of low rent device. I just thought, great stuff. Nice to see hardware be lives being extended. I don't know. Robbie, did you ever check out the

[Nick] the the p a the p o k o two teenage I yeah. I've got the e p 40 rhythm.

[Rob] Ah. Because I Oh, yes. That's I I didn't really sort of. Yeah. I I You got the ting as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I got that. They threw that in free, didn't they, with the the first set.

[Rob] I I when the when the first one came out, I didn't really sort of gel with it. I didn't think I'd I'd get on with it. And then when they brought the medieval out, I was like, yeah. That's that's cool. That's different. And I I might get one of those. But I'm glad I didn't because the internal specs just got better as the series went on and the rhythm is I think is probably got the best spec. It's got the one twenty eight mega standard and a few other bits and bobs. When you look when I looked at the update sheet for these,

[Amanda] there's different levels of updates. Like, the the medieval gets one little update and I think might just be the USB thing and then every you know, the the k o two and the the Rhythm got like pretty much everything. The Rhythm might have actually got something extra but either way, I mean they're great things. I even bought the the little mixer which is a superb design. It's so much fun. It's so much super fun. I'm super stoked on that Sidekick mixer. Like, it's just it just fits right in. It just makes the it portable. I love how they're showing it with, like, just buy two k o twos. Right? You see one over here and one over here, and then you're gonna have, like, a portable DJ setup. Right? And and you it actually you know, it's only a two channel, but it's got four, actually. It's got the aux in, and then it's got the USB audio in. And now you can connect USB audio to these things. So USB interface as well. It's fabulous. Yeah. It's just I'm like, I love those, yeah, I love those little things. So I'm super excited about it. They've done it. I it's so weird, isn't it? Because it's like at one end of the products, which are the people that everybody guffaws about and laughs at their sort of three grand table,

[Nick] which is like for jumble sales, it looks like. You know? Do know I mean? Or a pasting table. It just seems crazy. But whereas at this end, I think they're doing great work, actually. I know, Paulie. Yeah. I would think the the rhythm is probably quite a good show, actually, but that gets all that stuff too. Great for before. I've seen people perform with them just knows because the MIDI sequencing the MIDI sequencing them on them, and I've banged on about this is before, is just to let you know, each

[Nick] bank

[Nick] has

[Nick] can run a pattern that could be up to 99 bars, and then each of these can be a separate sequence that can run

[Nick] up to 90 can record up to 99 bars and

[Nick] record the controller including aftertouch and real time information. So it absolutely the VigorSpec is absolutely crazy. I mean, it doesn't have multiple MIDI ports, unfortunately, but, you know, so you are rather cramming it out of the one device.

[Nick] But, yeah, anyway.

[Paulee] It it it is the kind of thing where there's an ecosystem, isn't there? It's like an ecosystem instrument

[Paulee] and you, you know, you

[Paulee] I'm excited to see where they take it next, you know, what next thing is gonna clip into the site, you know, because they've they've done loads of pocket operators, haven't they?

[Paulee] That could be ripe that

[Paulee] could be ripe for, you know, this kind of excel enlarged treatment with a bigger screen and stuff like that. So yeah, the they could they could go anywhere. I remember we used to

[Paulee] joke about the the little dolls, didn't we? That was the Oh, that was It was around Christmas Yeah.

[Paulee] That's right. Yes. That's singing dolls and there was something like a £100 each or something, weren't they? For the base of the Yeah. Very collectible. Like that. Most definitely, I was getting sort of very furniture shop collecting

[Paulee] vibes from that. But from this, I'm getting sort of a real

[Paulee] as I said before, the the giving you things with utility

[Paulee] and compact size

[Paulee] that you can't really get in that price bracket,

[Paulee] you know Yeah. With that amount of utility as

[Paulee] as Amanda was saying, all the all the extra bits like the aux in and the USB in

[Paulee] on the mixer.

[Paulee] I mean, you can grab a mixer

[Paulee] probably within that price range, but it's not going to be this tiny thing that you can, you know, pop in a bag and and have just enough functionality to tear it up basically, you know. So no Yeah. I think And

[Paulee] the reversing and the the sample rates and the time stretch,

[Paulee] you know, I think people are going to get really really creative with it.

[Paulee] I I hope actually that

[Paulee] they say they've improved the time stretch but I always love a terrible awful Yeah. I know what time stretch. Awful time stretch. And grinds and stuff

[Paulee] like that. Charlie Clauser was talking about that when when he came on for Halloween once how he used it as like a horror sound, really terrible time stretch. But I think for the people who who are using this device, good time stretch is a decent shout because they'll probably be, you know, fitting loops and textures together.

[Nick] There we go. Nice. Good work for them. Let's I think I'd post this one. Yeah. That goes up. Billy Bart Cody says I want the medieval edition to stage impromptu deadcan dance jams. I must admit, it's really good fun. I do really did enjoy because of it, it's got loads of that sort of slowed down and big sort of flabby drums.

[Nick] It you can get very into the world of that sort of trip hop and

[Nick] sort of vibe. And if you load some other sounds in there, it could it could sound quite massive attack at times. At least I I did a I did a sort of groove on that. But, yeah, mid the MIDI sequencing is really good on it. That's the one thing I would say. Just gonna take a short break, and we're back after this.

[Nick] And we're back. Okay. Well, I think we'll get on to I'm gonna look at this one. This is interesting. I mean, I know this can be contentious. I know I've I've spent the week vibe coding loads of stuff in server back ends. And also, because I've been reviewing the Behringer

[Nick] or looking at starting to look at it, the Flow four v, which has a really peculiar file naming convention

[Nick] and you it records 32 bit flow, which when you put it in a DAW in multichannel, you literally you need to have something like 60 dB of normalization before you see Wow. Maybe a very quiet very quiet mic, which is fine because it's 32 bit, so you don't see there's no noisy or anything. But you're looking at it and it's like, is there anything on that track? I'm I'm I'm not sure there is. So I wrote I wrote a little right click thing that just says copy these files, name them with the proper time stamp that they were recorded at, and normalize the ISO track, please.

[Nick] You know, for instance. So stuff like that. I don't so anyway but that's not why I was I was just gonna so and and with that news, because I use Anthropic, I use Claude, which I think just thought by many to be one of the better ones. There's been they've added a load of new connectors, which means that you can add it to various things. Let me just I think I've got

[Nick] let me press this one. I think it will bring up the web page.

[Nick] Yes. This is a medium article by

[Nick] Joe and Gaia, which is they've added nine new connectors, Blender, Adobe Creative Cloud, Ableton, which was the thing that really sort of caught my eye.

[Nick] Autodesk Fusion, Splice as well, SketchUp, Affinity by Canva, and Resolume, which also includes some interesting you can all be connected. So for instance, Ableton Key Features, you could document documentation for grounded answers via Ableton Live for for Ableton Live and Perch on demand help, accurate product specific guidance. So not specifically controlling or asking it to generate stuff, but certainly maybe helping you around. What am I doing here? What should I do? How do I make the EQ? That sort of stuff, which I think is kind of interesting. And I think there's probably a wider discussion because I think as soon as we start talking AI, everybody freaks out. But I think generally speaking, we're maybe fall in the camp of generative not so much,

[Nick] assistive is where I'm going with this thing. And that that's the thing that I find quite interesting about this because it's about efficiency in many degrees. And I I suppose before we get into the the the nitty gritty of this, I'd just like to say a piece about that because, I mean, I'm thinking, you know, I am a a composer, for instance, who says,

[Nick] I'm trying to get the gig.

[Nick] Prices are probably being squeezed at all times.

[Nick] Maybe 30% of my time is spent messing around file naming, admin, whatever, stuff that I really don't wanna touch. If AI can do that part of it, then I get to I get paid more of that fee to do less of the the rubbish stuff. That's what I'm thinking. That's that's where I'm sort of my my mind's coming from it. And I think, you know, because just in the creative industry, generally, forget about the fact that AI is even there. Pressure on people to do things just to get a break or just to to to drop the price, whatever, is increasing all the time. So increasing efficiency, giving you a giving yourself a sort of leg up to be able to do the fun and the the instinctive stuff, the thing that makes your music yours is maybe the answer. Anyway, that's what I I'm gonna go to Amanda because I I know Amanda has lots of thoughts about this as well. I know this is but it's quite interesting that live has been included as a specified connector, and it's available as a connector. That's quite interesting. Yeah. It's it's super interesting. And, yeah, hearing kinda your use cases and needs are are super super good. Right? It's like how do we cut that's really what's gonna be the value.

[Amanda] It's always been the value. Right? The value of why you're hired as a musician or a composer is your taste, your discernment,

[Amanda] your your creativity. Right? And so finding ways to be more creative and have that more time to to do that

[Amanda] and and

[Amanda] take on more clients or or get that kind of,

[Amanda] boring stuff out of the way is is so important. Yeah. And the the MCP stuff is really interesting because it's like, you look at that article, and the first thing you look at is like, oh my god. Ableton has an MCP, so I can just have it do stuff for me in Ableton. And that's actually not what this MCP is. It's just a read only. It basically

[Amanda] they trained,

[Amanda] Claude on the manual,

[Amanda] And it's basically a tutorial. Right? And and which is super, super helpful. Right? There's so many cool tricks and shortcuts,

[Amanda] and it's impossible to kind of know them all. I'm sure a lot of your folks do. But but, but, yeah, it's it's just a super helpful sidekick. And,

[Amanda] Splice is read only as well, but, you know, it has a little bit more utility.

[Amanda] You can search,

[Amanda] by by text. You can build sample stacks with their, like, create feature,

[Amanda] which is which is really cool.

[Amanda] What's really interesting too is is the other,

[Amanda] creative tools in that article do have more of, a read write feature. Like, the Adobe connector is actually generative.

[Amanda] So in that one, you can edit images, orchestrate, Photoshop,

[Amanda] but nobody in the music area is

[Amanda] yet officially

[Amanda] in that context, like touching a type of prop, get a mixed track thing yet. That said,

[Amanda] there are MCPs

[Amanda] that are community based that are absolutely doing that read write stuff. Two big communities, two projects, one is called Ableton MCP, and the other one's called ProducerPal.

[Amanda] And now it actually lets Claude retracts, write MIDI, build arrangements all through chat. Now the problem with those is is those are kinda like reverse engineered kind of, shoestring bubblegum. Like, there's a lot of dropouts and a lot of problems with with just reliability

[Amanda] for that piece,

[Amanda] But it's it's really it's really kind of

[Amanda] a cool thing that's happening that it's like that read write piece is happening organically.

[Amanda] And then but but officially,

[Amanda] these companies aren't

[Nick] diving into it too much yet. Right? No. I can understand why they were. Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. No. I agree. No. That's interesting. I mean, I suppose the thing you know, I'm just thinking use cases here. You know, it's like, I've got a track. I need a fade out.

[Nick] A proper, you know, a prop no. We always used to joke when we were doing we we'd be working on a remix. We'd do the whole thing, and then we'd have to do we'd record it to that, and we'd have we'd say we need to call the fade engineering because I I I think that used to be a thing. There'd be somebody who was really good at just fading out a track Oh, really? Get them to come in for. And and so, you know, just being able to do stuff like that might be trust. And and, Rob, I don't know whether this because I don't know whether the this sort of technology touches your life in other aspects of your careers that you other things that you do, but I'm assuming so. I mean, and I, you know, I am fully aware people I can already see people getting hot under the color of it. You know, the this is really interesting because I think once new technology begins to take hold,

[Nick] we've seen it again and again and again, particularly when it comes to creative. We go way back. There was a really interesting interview I did with Eric Dress who said it was the same when the color blue was invented. It was the same when photography came around. It was the same when desktop publishing came around. It was the same when cassette you know, there are these points in technology, which and I know this is not necessarily quite the same, but it it follows a very similar set of principles, I think. Anyway, sorry. Over to you, Robbie. I was saying it it was the same when sampling came along. Do you remember? I mean, everybody thought they were we're all gonna be out of a job. Sampling was gonna do it, and then, you know, people think that you press a button on the laptop and all it does everything for you.

[Rob] So I I've always looked at this latest kind of trend of

[Rob] AI. I don't like the term AI because I don't think it is that intelligent at the moment. It's it's still very much in its learning phases. But I I use it pretty much on a daily basis in my day job. I do a lot I used to do a lot of voice over work for, the company that I work for, and it became problematic because if we ever needed to do edits

[Rob] or we ever needed to

[Rob] have something done and I wasn't there and we needed consistency

[Rob] or if I had a cold or, yeah, whatever. There was no you know, so that we wanted to get a way of delivering a consistent voice.

[Rob] And those kind of technologies now where you can just, you know, text to speech is so

[Rob] so good that we ended up just saying, look, yeah, okay. That's fine. It's it'll take us just as long to write the script, to generate the audio, to occasionally phonetically change

[Rob] some of the pronunciations. I mean, I work in an industry where we use a lot of acronyms that would then become words.

[Rob] And of course, the the AI doesn't know how to, you know, to say those things. So I do use them. And when my boss says to me, can you come up with a strategy for x y and z? And I'm like, oh, don't know how to do that.

[Rob] I yeah. Copilot. Hello. Thank you very much. And within sort of five minutes, I've got the thing that I can then go on and elaborate and and finesse and make a little bit more natural.

[Rob] But when it comes to this stuff,

[Rob] I I suffered too badly from impostor syndrome as it is. I think people you know, I always worried when I played live that people were thinking that there's something going on here that I'm not responsible for. I always hated using sequences live because it was kind of cheating,

[Rob] but it isn't. But it is. And so I just no. I when it I I do this because I enjoy the creative process,

[Rob] And I don't want people to take that away from me. If and as you said before,

[Rob] it's the assistive part that I will look at more than the the bit that does the generative stuff. So if it can help me if I can feed a manual into an AI and it's come and I can go to it and say, I really wanna do this and I haven't got time to learn how to, you know, go through it. Tell me how to do it because you read the manual and I get the answer straight away. That's great. It doesn't stop me. You know, it doesn't influence my creative process. So

[Rob] somebody said to me recently, we shouldn't be saying that AI and and is inevitable. We should be saying it's not and we should be pushing back against it. And I kind of agree with that. Not because I don't want it to exist at all, but I want it to exist the way we need it to exist, not the way that maybe some corporations. Great. Yeah. This is this is like my soapbox right now. It really really is because

[Amanda] what I'm finding for the first time in human history, it feels like that technology is moving faster than the audience who needs to use the technology. Right? And and this is my open letter to every pro audio company out there. You know, innovate, do AI, but listen to your customer. Right? Absolutely. There's just a lot of people, you know, a lot of things that are coming out that no one ever asked for. And the other thing to think about too is, like, especially you're putting generative AI in your DAW, for example, sender.

[Amanda] There is a problem with that in the sense that nothing's wrong with generative. I I don't mind generative, honestly, but not everyone wants to use it. And, also, there's an emotional component of this. AI is flipping everybody's lives upside down on the daily. Everywhere you look, there's AI. Right? And people use music to escape.

[Amanda] So what happens when you open your DAW to escape all this AI and all this crazy stuff? And the first thing that pops up when you open your DAW is, hey. We have AI in your DAW. Like, that's just the last straw for some people. Right? It's Yeah. I've done it. Be great. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's just it's not even a logical, rational thing.

[Amanda] Your AI tool could be awesome and super helpful for people, but there's just this emotional undertone component

[Amanda] that will settle, I think, in a few years.

[Nick] It's fair. There was they they took a temperature of it. Sorry, Paul. I'll come to you in a second. They took a temperature of it. It's annoying. It's like, you know, there are various polls in America, for instance. This was where it was set of, you know, popularity of, say, politicians and AI. And AI is extremely low popularity at the moment. It's very interesting. But it's because

[Nick] it's being it's being pushed at the the the the larger population. I mean, for me, using it for coding is absolutely

[Nick] brilliant and saves me loads of time. And if I was using it an assistive way in the I mean, you know, say if I'm working in the studio and I'm starting to get enough work,

[Nick] it's like, well but it it doesn't generate enough money. I mean, previously, you know, you'd have to generate enough money to be able to afford an assistant, somebody to actually come in and help you. You might be recording you might be working in a tiny tiny room, which makes that impossible. So there are lots of use cases where that's a where it could be helpful. Anyway, Paulie, sorry. Didn't mean to Yes. Hijack. So so everybody knows I always like to get my ore and stick it in the the water mill of AI.

[Paulee] And and, you know,

[Paulee] essentially act as a bit of an industry agitator,

[Paulee] a sort of, I guess, a disabled advocate where where disability and AI intersects. But I've got to to say that,

[Paulee] sort of,

[Paulee] yeah, I've been on a bit of a journey with it really. I'm not necessarily as scared of it

[Paulee] usually,

[Paulee] when when I hear about, you know, these latest advances. But I've got to say this one, Nick. Right?

[Paulee] When you sent it and Claude's getting his little fingers into all these pies,

[Paulee] my reaction was, oh my god, Skynet is growing

[Paulee] because I'm a huge dystopian,

[Paulee] you know, sci fi fan

[Paulee] as you can see. And

[Paulee] and and that was that was the thing that really really made me

[Paulee] laugh about it.

[Paulee] But yeah, there's been so many interesting

[Paulee] things

[Paulee] that have happened

[Paulee] not necessarily in AI,

[Paulee] but in the attitude towards AI. I've seen so many interesting kind of social things recently.

[Paulee] For instance, we've had Tidal, haven't we? Who have come out Mhmm. Was it was it yesterday, like, a couple of days ago saying, we're going to allow AI content on our app but you're not going to get any money

[Paulee] which I thought was a really interesting way to to kind of cut the cake, you know.

[Paulee] It's like Oh, I see. Right. Yeah. Well, that's We're gonna let it on.

[Paulee] But you don't get paid. But you don't get paid. But

[Paulee] the the the

[Paulee] couple of other points I thought about were one,

[Paulee] I actually found out. I made a video about could anti AI become a protected belief like, you know, anti meat eating is a protected belief in the in The UK

[Paulee] or religion I like vegetarian protected be called. Exactly.

[Paulee] And it's happened.

[Paulee] A woman has won a religious exemption from using AI at work.

[Paulee] Her name's Erin and she secured a miracle from her employer, a religious exemption.

[Paulee] That's that's

[Paulee] really interesting,

[Paulee] you know. And does this mean businesses are gonna be forced

[Paulee] to create

[Paulee] legacy workflows? Because we're all legacy now.

[Paulee] The human race

[Paulee] essentially. So we're legacy work, but but the the sort of

[Paulee] last thing I wanted to mention was hang on. Hang on. Hang on. There was Tidal. There was that. Oh, god. My mind's gone blank.

[Paulee] Oh, yeah.

[Paulee] We're gonna talk about Squitty Politty in a minute, aren't we? I think today. Yeah. I think so. The the just general Yeah. Yeah. Listening listening to that album, Mike,

[Paulee] it's very 1985.

[Paulee] It is all the technology of 1985

[Paulee] being used at once. Let's get samplers and synths and drum machines, and they're going absolutely

[Paulee] They're having kind of synthesized this psychosis,

[Paulee] and it kind of reminds me of where we are now with AI where people have just got their shiny new toy and they're going absolutely,

[Paulee] you know,

[Paulee] hell for leather with it.

[Paulee] And let's not forget that, yes, technology kept on with the with the music industry, but by 1990,

[Paulee] 1991,

[Paulee] we had things like grunge

[Paulee] back in popularity again which was all obviously done with real instruments

[Paulee] and we had things like Oh, unplugged

[Nick] became really popular so Edited to within an inch of its life on Pro Tools. I mean Sure. Sure. Yes. Yes. But

[Paulee] something came back, didn't it? There was reaction. So I'm I'm kind

[Paulee] of art we're going to see as a reaction to this very odd part of history we're living through. So those are my thoughts.

[Amanda] Yeah. Yeah. That's real That's interesting.

[Amanda] Yeah. That's really that's really interesting and and yeah, I I do think that being a live performing musician is going to be a more and more popular

[Amanda] avenue for expression because

[Amanda] of just people just wanting to unplug. I mean, there there's gonna be people who are just super stoked about the technology and then people who are just like, I just can't look at a screen anymore because it's just AI ing me all over the place. Right?

[Amanda] It's it's gonna be really interesting.

[Nick] Yeah. No. I agree. I I I tell you. But it is it is yes. It is an interesting time. But, yes, we should get on to that that that other topic.

[Nick] It it an article that Robbie wrote. Just trying to think where I could yeah. And I but I think also, just going back to my earlier point is there is a massive pushback against us. I and I think the problem is is AI has been pushed to the general population

[Nick] rather than to business and tools and users first. And I think it's not ready for that. It's bloody great for some of the things that I wanna use it for, but I wouldn't I I don't want it anywhere else. Do know what I mean? I think that's the thing. You know? And it's it's just where you use it like

[Amanda] Yeah. I feel like it's CEO syndrome. I don't I don't know if that's the thing. It's just like all these CEOs go on all these podcasts and just tell us their vision of the future, and then all the CEOs of all the music companies hear the CEOs in these other podcasts, and they're like, oh, this is a vision of the future. We have to put all this new stuff in because the CEOs of these other companies say so. But it's like, there's just a disconnect right now between what people need and what the CEOs say you need, and and there needs to be more balance there on on on that front. And and I think the backlash

[Amanda] that

[Amanda] people are getting from these products so so to your to your point, you know,

[Amanda] yes. Just saying it's not inevitable. Like, we get to choose how we use this stuff. And and so call your local congressman and music gear manufacturer and and tell them because they have to listen.

[Nick] Yes. We do have some, some some power as consumers. That's very true. Anyway, I'm I'm sure it won't be the last, AI

[Nick] related topic perhaps for this show or or generally speaking. You know? It just becomes a thing. I mean, it is a thing, and people just and I don't as I say, I'm not I'm not anti it. I don't I'm not interested in things that will make music for me, but I am interested in things that will help me make music more.

[Amanda] The good things stuff And is coming. And that stuff is coming, and it's it's alive right now. Like, looking at these open source MCP things is just really fascinating and interesting.

[Amanda] And I think a lot of companies,

[Amanda] you know, are hedging that. And, like, Live just came out with an SDK in June Yeah. That will help that stuff make it more possible.

[Amanda] So,

[Amanda] you know, in the best case scenario,

[Amanda] like, the gear companies get a little squarely about how to implement this, and they can be more community led. So,

[Amanda] having opinion and and and working on those projects could actually

[Nick] we could start seeing them in an open source world for a lot of this kind of stuff, which would be really cool. It should be be much better. Yeah. Absolutely. Right. Okay. I'm gonna I think I'm just gonna drop the other ad of the show, and then we'll come back and we can talk about Cupid and Psych and related topics because that's a that's a cracker.

[Nick] Okay. And we're back. I I didn't have a video to play for this or or I could have had a video to play for this, but I I would anticipate

[Nick] that I would get busted for it. So I think I'm just playing

[Nick] yeah. There's the story. No. That's not it. Go on.

[Nick] There it is. There's Robbie's Robbie's article, which was Cupid at Psych 85 synth by synth. I've only made it shorter, Robbie, because it doesn't fit on the on the the lower thing. But but this was and and and aside from the historical document of that and the interesting things, this sort of opened me up for a sort of slightly wider topic, which was,

[Nick] you know, there are certain albums and certain things which

[Nick] really just kind of

[Nick] fire the imagination. You become sort of slightly obsessed with. You know, you you take a lot of ideas for production. You think, oh, what's that sound? And they're very influential in that way. So I was thinking of additionally on top of that, we're talking like albums that have influenced you and that you kind of that speak to you creatively and maybe, you know, you've used those influences recently. So but I'll let you go in first with it, Robbie. I'm I have one thing I want to say, which I thought Mhmm. And I'm pretty sure that Dave Gampson said this. It was I thought they used t x eight one six for for that, not the DX No.

[Rob] There was I I spoke to Gamsson. He said it was they literally had a DX seven in the studio next door, and he'd never seen or heard one and loved it and then, you know, used it there. But on provision, it was the t x eight sixteen, which David has promised that I can have as for a price, of course. Yeah. So I'm I'm sort of waiting for that. But no, the it's funny you should say that because this article

[Rob] spun out of my love of this album which is a deep and widespread love because it's not just about the music or the lyrics or the the the art on the covers or and it was it came out 06/10/1985.

[Rob] A friend of mine at school lent me the album on cassette, I didn't give it back, I think, for months because I went on holiday to Italy, which is what we used to. We used to go back home to Manona, and

[Rob] I just split up with this girl. She was about a foot taller than me. I was I was really quite short when I was young, and she was about a foot taller than me. And we just got ribbed so much about it she just couldn't stand it. So we'd split up and I was gutted. So I flew off to Italy all teenage angsty and and forlorn and and you know just like ugh. And this album saw me through those those some summer months

[Rob] in my Nonna's apartment in the Alps in North West Italy,

[Rob] and I listened to it over and over initially because it soothed my soul, because the music is just incredible.

[Rob] And then the more I listened to it, the more I heard, the more of, Gamson's just incredible,

[Rob] arrangements and his counterpoint, which he's, you know, he's he's a massive Bach fan and so counterpoint was his thing.

[Rob] And, the instrumentation, I started was reading the sleeve notes which very kindly told me, you know, what was being used, who was playing what, and of course, you know, there's Fairlight, there's d x seven, there's all of those things that I am so obsessed with still to this day. And then so many years later, you know, the the album still resonates and I've been so lucky to have kind of become friends with with David and have learned so much about the production of that album and provision and and other things as well. And it's just a remarkable process that they used. You know, when they recorded that album,

[Rob] MIDI had just come out and they weren't they didn't use it on the first three tracks that they recorded because it just wasn't there.

[Rob] And when they started to use it, they to get that kind of sequence sound, they would play everything at half speed and record it, you know, an octave,

[Rob] below so that you'd speed it up and it would so you could get that precise timing. So the the amount of effort that went into producing that and the sounds that were being used and, you know, that clever trick that Gamsin used to get a a punchy baseline.

[Rob] He knew that the mini mode was, you know, the the king of bass, but it still lacked that little bit of attack. So he cleverly used the the d x seven with its, you know, really rapid attack

[Rob] and created, you know, this little sound.

[Rob] Really punchy sound. Yeah. Yeah. And you layer the two together and all of a sudden you've got this this punchy

[Rob] you know, unmistakable scritty palitty bass that goes

[Rob] through Cupid and Psyche and and and also

[Rob] Provision as well. But, yeah, it's such a dear, dear album and I thought, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna talk about synthesizers, but I'm gonna kind of extol the virtues of this of this wonderful

[Rob] work of art that is now 41

[Rob] years old. Wow. That's astonishing, isn't it? Which is astonishing when you listen to it because for me, it doesn't age at all. So, yeah, it's it's a wonderful thing and and whenever I write anything or talk about Scritty and Cupid and Psyche, it's always so nice to hear how many people cite it as an influence

[Nick] and or something that's important to them. It's really interesting. I didn't know that they'd recorded everything at half speed and octave down. That would explain why there's a certain quality to the sound that was so different to it. And it's very interesting. I mean and and things like that will make a difference. I mean, a lot of people of certain generations site, you know, or previous generations to mine site, Pet Shop Boys

[Nick] Mhmm. Sorry. You got pet sounds from

[Nick] from the Beach Boys and whatnot. Mhmm. But there are very specific time. I know, Amanda, I mean, because you when you stepped away from the day job for a while, you went and focused on the music side of things. You know, you you you were creating. You were doing stuff. Were was there like that's what I'm looking for. There's sort of an album or a a kind of collection or an artist that you just went, wow. That's

[Nick] I I wanna find what that stuff.

[Amanda] Yeah. Totally.

[Amanda] You. Well, what was really interesting when I started producing my own music is I just have and I still haven't gotten it. Right? But there's a very specific sound that I want that doesn't exist.

[Amanda] Right? And so I've been, like,

[Amanda] different

[Amanda] songs, like, not even albums so much. I do have some some albums that are super influential, but for me, it's really particular songs. And and that's like the DJ culture. Right? It's like I would take various songs from various artists,

[Amanda] and through curating those, it would kinda get around with this sound that I really liked. And for me personally,

[Amanda] it's just this bridge between,

[Amanda] tech house, like, big bass lights, big, like, hip hop y type of, you know, West Coast tech house. Like, Walker and Royce is, like, one of my favorites. They they just the way they mix and the way the sounds they use is just incredible.

[Amanda] But but pairing it with, like, melodic kind of nineties trance and some UKG,

[Amanda] like, influences. Right? It's like, so how can you take something that's, like, hits hard and is melodic at the same time?

[Amanda] And it's just kind of like a holy grail quest for me.

[Amanda] And and but yeah. Like,

[Amanda] but when I think about actual albums albums,

[Amanda] there's a couple that kinda came to mind that were that kind of helps me. Is less than the dance music world, but but once Burial, Untrue, like, the nuance in that album is just incredible. And, like and that and that's one that I come back to when I start thinking about more melodic and more just texture based music. It's it's still pretty

[Amanda] pretty hard to to to get into there, but it's it's yeah. It's just an incredible album. And and on the more pop side, it would be, Lord Pure Heroine. That one

[Amanda] is pretty poppy, but and and simple, but very well crafted and just like that restraint.

[Amanda] Like, the way to make some things sound big is to be restrained and right. And how do you how do you do that is is Right. Yeah. Is is the is the is the magic. And and, yeah, it's just I definitely have this there's this scene from Kill Bill where where Uma Thurman just sees the master doing amazing things. She's like, I want to do that. How do I do that? And that's that's kind of the the

[Amanda] the

[Amanda] the

[Nick] you know, I'm closer than I was, but still not anywhere close to Still searching for that searching for it. Yeah. That's a great a great potential

[Nick] topic title in there, which was what was it? Oh, it's gone now. It's by

[Nick] oh, I'll find it in a minute. I know, Paulie. I mean Yes. Keep it in sight. It's probably a bit before your time, I'd imagine. But, I mean, there must be other albums that have I was I was a similar

[Nick] Right. Yeah. Probably didn't mean much to you then.

[Nick] But It was thing I will say, listening to I really enjoyed it. Videos, it was it was so

[Nick] saccharine.

[Nick] You know, the the the end his imagery,

[Nick] the way that he the way he delivers the vocals were really sort of like little little chocolate. Very very white chocolate, very Americanized

[Nick] vocal, which I was I couldn't remember any of that. And I thought, oh, I don't remember that. I would have ordinarily perhaps not been as

[Nick] keen on something so affected, you know, because it didn't need to be. But that was interesting Incredibly me. Incredibly political lyrics as well, which Yes. That's true. Married with that sound. It's just that Yeah. You know, the dichotomy is brilliant.

[Paulee] I I think it's great music to listen for the little bits in essentially,

[Paulee] you know, because there's clearly so much musicianship

[Paulee] behind it

[Paulee] that you can kinda get lost in the in the in the tracks.

[Paulee] But any wait. An album for me, right, which was transformative

[Paulee] was It's a Wonderful Life by Sparklehorse.

[Paulee] Now the interesting thing about It's a Wonderful Life is that it breaks all of the rules.

[Paulee] It sounds so lo fi

[Paulee] out on one track, which I really love called King Ganellis.

[Paulee] He distorts an acoustic guitar

[Paulee] wildly.

[Paulee] His voice is very, you know, days off. It's a wonderful

[Paulee] life. You know, really haunted,

[Paulee] weird,

[Paulee] and but it's just absolutely achingly beautiful with a little octagon

[Paulee] and Mellotron

[Paulee] loops and all sorts of stuff like that. So it was

[Paulee] it was an eye opener for me because it was popular and you know, it was in the the the albums chart at HMV with the, you know, the the headphones you could go up and listen to an album. Yeah.

[Nick] Adrian Utley worked on that.

[Paulee] He worked at Really? Adrian yeah. Adrian Utley worked on that. He's yeah. Well, there we go then. I just snuck in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's that's transformative for me that you can be popular

[Paulee] and weird

[Paulee] and almost off putting,

[Paulee] you know, in some ways,

[Paulee] but intriguing maybe in others. So there we go. And you don't have to be the best singer in the world.

[Paulee] You can just be very, very true. Yeah.

[Nick] I had a I had a couple. I mean, obviously, you know, there there are a couple of I think

[Nick] probably, like, some really big ones. When I was a little kid, I mean, I think there's early Jean Michel Jarre because I've never heard

[Nick] Sonoglio

[Nick] by Red, which is one of Alessandro Cortini's names. And that is Right. Really, really good. That's well worth listening. It's got a couple of tracks on there that are just world class. You know? And I don't know how it does stuff is good.

[Nick] Well, he manages to fit all of these really gnarly and middly sounds,

[Nick] and yet you can kinda hear everything. I don't know how the hell he is. It sounds like a nightmare mix that he somehow manages to pull out. But, yeah, that but it I just think it's a fascinating concept, isn't it? The the the way I know, obviously, all of us are influenced by the music of our upbringings and our, you know, as we went into adulthood and maybe, you know, fell in love for the first time, dance for the first time, whatever. They all have a real resonance, and they're not necessarily all about music production, but that also goes into it. But, yeah, keep it in sight was a was a great album. So yeah. Nice. Nice nice article, Robbie. Very good. Thank you. I know she got plenty plenty of links in for Thomann gear in there as well, which is obviously Well, you know, gotta pay the bills.

[Nick] Absolutely. Nice work. You can't buy Fairlight anymore, but you can. You can get the PPG

[Rob] The PPG wave was there. So you had the Fairlight, PPG wave, mini moog, Jupiter eight. Just trying to see what else was there. The x seven. Yeah. And the the d x seven. So, yeah, a a a kind of heady collection. But I was really under the impression that it was heavily sequenced, but it really was not, which is so interesting. And it's exactly what I thought. And I I always used to hold it up as this beacon of this is how good sequenced music could be. And then I spoke to Gamze and he was like, no, it wasn't. No. It was all it was all taped and we did things, you know, at slower speeds and sped things up and MIDI was just very nice at the time and not very good. And so, yeah, it it's brilliant. However, provision is follow-up, which some people cite as maybe being even more polished and pristine. That was,

[Rob] mostly sequenced on one of these things, the q x one. So that's painful. And and that's why, you know, the the band didn't do any for years. The whole process of doing album.

[Rob] Yeah. They honestly, when I when I've spoken to David about it, you can visibly see him wince when you say provision.

[Rob] So yeah. That stuff is but it's a beautiful thing. Great thing to test your hi fi on.

[Nick] Yeah. I know that's true. A lot of transients. The other one was well, that was the other thing that because everybody for a very long time I mean, Kara Carpenter, fantastic singer, amazing drummer. Mhmm. But now when I listen to her voice, I can't handle it. It's too sweet. It's like a kind of like it it's like it's it's so I mean, it's bittersweet as well because of, you know but even if you, you know, discard the history and what went behind it and the sadness, the her voice is is almost too much because it's so the the control and the range and the dict the diction and the delivery is just, it's almost too perfect in a way, which is really peculiar when I listen to it now. But that's just me. I mean, obviously, everybody has their own opinion. Oh, and Right. I it's still playing live, by the way. Oh, I know. They're playing they're playing, two gigs on the July 18 at the Queen Elizabeth Hall Southbank Centre,

[Rob] for the rough trade fiftieth. They're doing a matinee gig and an evening gig, and there's just a handful of tickets left. I highly recommend if you haven't experienced Gritty, go and get some tickets. Oh, yeah. That sounds good. I might be interested in that.

[Nick] Right. I I think I'm gonna try and knock things on the head. England are about to kick off. It's one minute to five. I do apologize if I've left any of your burning topics on the on the side, but there's always next week or next time. So thank you very much. Amanda, you have you got a full day of work ahead of you now? Do you swivel around to your workstation and and Pretty much. Pretty much. Yeah.

[Amanda] I got a good I got a good combo of,

[Amanda] you know, looking for clients and making some beats. So it's gonna be an awesome day. Nice. And I got to start it with this. It's awesome.

[Nick] Thank you. And thank you so much for joining synthesize.mark.

[Nick] That is a URL. Right? Isn't It is. Synthesize.mark.

[Nick] Yes. Absolutely. I just wanted to double check that because it's quite a long dot after the dot. But yeah. And there you go. I know. How things have changed. Trying to be fancy.

[Nick] Modern times and all that.

[Nick] Rob, I I know you managed to join us. Are you gonna go and dash into the front room, or are you going down to the pub, or are you not watching the football at all? Nope. I have some nonalcoholic

[Rob] beverages in the fridge. The telly will go on. I'll finish this. And then when the football's finished, gotta come back here and finish an article for tomorrow's

[Rob] gear news. And, yeah, then I've got a nice, quiet, relaxing weekend for for once. So I'm gonna make the most of that.

[Rob] Yeah. So

[Rob] Nice. Oh, we've a show on Friday.

[Nick] Oh, yes. Of course. I'm just gonna that's my

[Nick] Yeah. No guest this week, but we'll there's some more new topics to talk about. On YouTube. Pricing network. Alright. Well, I hope Yep. There you go.

[Nick] Nice one. Thank you very much. And, Paulie, you you knock it off early or are you gonna be back onto the

[Paulee] whatever it is, finishing off video, whatever? Yeah. I'm gonna finish off the Iridium, just edit my last few vocals, and yes, then I'm gonna go and see a friend, which would be nice. Get out of It'll the house for a

[Paulee] be awesome. I just wanted to finish off with the the the number 899

[Paulee] as a slight thing for me, just a memory.

[Paulee] I was in a shop with my mom sometime in the eighties and in order to get what I wanted from my mother,

[Paulee] I I'd ask her like I was trying to learn, mom, how much is this? And she'd go, $8.99. And I'd then I'd say, have you got $8.99?

[Paulee] And that's how I'd get the toys. So there we go. So

[Paulee] it just it just came into my head, you know. That's that's the way we used to get stuff.

[Nick] Yes. Brilliant.

[Nick] Well, thank you everybody. Thanks everybody in the chat room. Thanks to all of that. We'll be back next week. That was Sonic Talk episode

[Nick] eight nine nine, and we'll end the show there. Oh, yeah. Don't forget. We got the superstar hangout on Sunday if you remember. Anyway, see you later. See you there.